Artur A. Dydrov (a) & Alexandra S. Varlamova (b)
(a) South Ural State University (National Research University); Chelyabinsk State University. Chelyabinsk, Russia. Email: zenonstoik[at]mail.ru ORCID: https://orcid.org/0000-0002-3288-8724
(b) Chelyabinsk State University. Chelyabinsk, Russia. Email: varlamova.aleksandra02[at]mail.ru
Received: 1 June 2024 | Revised: 12 June 2024 | Accepted: 20 June 2024
Abstract
Internet microformats (short stories, gifs, pics, memes, demotivators, etc.) have a short life compared to “monumental” content, but are characterized by a high speed of circulation and reproduction. Metaphorically, this allows us to designate their life cycle and the specifics of penetration into the information environment, and fr om there to the consumer, as “virulent”. Memes are short messages, usually combining visual and verbal levels. Their social functions (not to mention cognitive ones), the nature of the impact on the values of generations, the formation and catalysis of worldviews, are usually underestimated. In a dialogic format, representatives of different generations discuss current memes of 2024. The participants in the conversation (authors) talk about what memes broadcast new memes and how they do it. The focus is on corporeality and body representation in memes. The conversations also touch on “peripheral” topics – soviet and post-soviet culture, scandalous events in the media, etc. The dialogues perform at least two functions: first, they are the result of understanding significant microformats and transmitted meanings; second, the texts of the conversations can serve as material for understanding the values of representatives of different generations, understanding patterns and stereotypes of thought. The authors hope that the texts offered to the reader will play at least one of these roles.
Keywords
Microformat; Meme; Corporeality; Body; Chatbot; Technology; Meaning; Message; Dialogue; “Meme Studies”
It is challenging to disagree with the assertion by a group of researchers that memes have recently become significant agents of influence (Vitiuk et al., 2020, p. 45). However, this “recently” has already spanned more than a decade. One fundamental characteristic of an internet meme is its openness to copying and imitation. Essentially, similar practices are applied to monumental “works.” However, unlike monumental formats, microformats are significantly more amenable to copying and reproduction procedures. Consequently, they exhibit high rates of generation, regeneration, transmission, etc. We draw attention to the fact that the widespread fascination with internet memes is partly due to the growth of informational chaos and, consequently, the confusion people experience when encountering vast streams of information in modern symbolic production and exchange.
Increasingly in scholarly literature, well-argued opinions are expressed that memes are complex semiotic constructs (Kanashina, 2015, p. 118), combining multi-layered composition, indexical, and iconic signs (Dashkova, 2022, p. 130). Additionally, memes possess sociocultural, political, and historical backgrounds, making them not always easily “readable.” At the dawn of “memology,” when R. Dawkins introduced the concept (an event that became almost sacred and is reproduced in all publications about memes, including this one), memes were considered as semantic and cultural units. Gradually, researchers abandoned template designations like “cultural units” (Shifman, 2013, p. 362), recognizing memes as complex semiotic constructs with history, multi-layeredness, and communicative potential. The view that a meme is not merely a “unit” of culture/information/meaning/significance has been criticized, focusing instead on memes as tools of communication. The communicative potential of memes is detailed in the works of D. Ivanova (Ivanova, 2022), Y. Kosheleva (Kosheleva, 2022), among others.
The communicative nature of memes has also been reinterpreted, now viewed more broadly as a cultural format. Monumentalism has infiltrated this version of interpretation. For example, Bastari, Lukito, and Adhika describe memes as “virtual visual artifacts” representing historical events of specific times. The authors note that the current characteristics of internet memes are changing, with people tending to alter their reactions to significant events (Bastari, Lukito & Adhika, 2021, pp. 21-22). This opinion is also hard to disagree with. However, the assertion that the original image for creating memes emerges fr om news can only be partially agreed upon. Otherwise, we diverge fr om a communicative reduction in understanding memes and accept a “newsmaking” reduction. If a meme broadcasts a processed event (and an event is never “pure”), it is inherently discursive, expressing moods, interests, demands, and, in general, an axiological world.
Accumulating axiology, a meme can be the subject of analysis in various fields dealing with culture, history of ideas, ideologies, etc. Naturally, memes unite people, provide topics for communication, and offer current agendas for discussion (Henn & Posegga, 2023). The following text emerged as an experiment, largely made possible by the open editorial policy of “Corpus Mundi,” for which we are infinitely grateful to the journal's team. My co-author and I attempted to discuss memes with minimal prior preparation. We were interested in fresh, essentially spontaneous reactions to current memes. The focus was on corporeality since the meme, by its representational and iconic nature, cannot ignore this topic (at least indirectly). The reader will encounter discussions of characters fr om Soviet and Russian culture, even in the manner of T. Adorno and M. Horkheimer, the “culture industry” (Adorno & Horkheimer, 2016). The discussion involves two specialists, a philologist, and a philosopher. The peculiarity of the dialogues lies not only in the participants' different specializations but also in their ages. Essentially, two generations are discussing memes.
A.D.: Dear colleagues, we have decided to open a small series of discussions. I think there will be about three or four meetings. The forthcoming transcript of our conversations and a possible publication necessitate limiting ourselves to three, at most four, discussions. These discussions will be united by a subject. Unexpectedly, it will be about memes. One could talk about them endlessly and simultaneously say nothing. Of course, we will try to keep our conversation within certain boundaries. These boundaries will be defined, in this case, by the theme of the body and corporeality, the representation of the body in current meme culture and meme industry. Why did I say “industry”? The term seems inappropriate here. Today, there are various websites allowing memes to be generated using artificial intelligence, jokes to be produced based on templates. People create memes. Not just people, but algorithms as well. People can give the command to “generate a meme.” This production is realized at “insane” speeds. We see this by the abundance of memes on virtually any topic. Each meme template, accepted in culture as a basic source material, receives dozens, if not hundreds, of different variations. This happened with our friend, whom we all know well. He is a character fr om a cult universe, a small house-elf named Dobby. Tell me, what does Dobby, the meme hero, associate with for you? It's interesting. How do you perceive him, independently of memes?
A.V.: Unfortunately, I perceive Dobby only thanks to memes, as I have not watched the “Harry Potter” series, and memes allowed me to associate the character with a sock. It seems strange, but it is so. And the sock, in turn, associates with freedom or bondage. Also with the theme of absurdity, since it is a gift and a strange one at that.
A.D.: The sock, as you said, is a gift. Dobby is happy that his master gave him a sock. It expresses, I would say, a reverence for his master.
A.V.: Also, only one, which absurdifies the situation. Dobby is indeed a contradictory figure. He is an elf, but an elf of a particular kind. He is only about 90 centimeters tall, wrinkled, and scary. We usually perceive elves differently. And Dobby depends on his master, addressing him with reverence, typically implying a capital letter if “master” were written. The elf receives a sock as a gift – a completely useless, frankly speaking, present. This, essentially, captures the absurdity of the situation. One might ask, Dobby, what are you happy about?
A.D.: One could say that. But Dobby cannot be considered, for instance, a trickster figure. A trickster usually has some ridiculous items of clothing, like an old hat or cap. Do you think Dobby could be a trickster or not?
A.V.: There seems to be a contradiction; this element of clothing might convince us that Dobby is a jester. His comic appearance, his old, wrinkled state, evokes both laughter and pity.
A.D.: Dobby evokes a kind of affection, but hardly repulsion. I think you will agree with me here. Pity, rather, because he is a small, wrinkled “elf.” Almost a parody of an elf. Thanks to his ears, he conveys “elfishness.” Dobby seems part of a comedic culture. No longer of Tolkien's epic or Rowling's epic. It is more an element of comedic culture, I agree. We found a meme about Dobby, the sock, and someone else.
The meme says the master gave Dobby a sock. Dobby can go to Ivleeva's party. The classic meme image of this character holding a long sock is taken, with a small caption added. The elf can go to Ivleeva's party. Through a “pitiful,” laconic phrase, the meme starts pulling in current social meanings, representing an event or a complex of events. This brings up the entire socio-cultural agenda. The event associated with this international tension comes to mind, becoming even clearer by contrast. This is the so-called naked party organized by popular blogger Anastasia Ivleeva. A controversial figure, but part of our modern culture, expressing certain trends. I have a naive question for you, if you will, a completely naive one. Let’s try to abstract from the context, I mean the socio-political one. How do you view the idea of a naked party in general? Taken, say, “in a vacuum.”
A.V.: If it takes place on a nudist beach, it probably aligns with some accepted behavioral norms there (though not necessarily legislated). However, if the party happens elsewhere, it is not quite the right model of behavior. Such behavior is considered outside the norm; the body is typically covered, especially certain parts. Some people may invest a creative message or symbolism in it. For instance, nowadays, semi-transparent dresses are created wh ere a person appears completely naked, but something is painted in the form of a dress, with a bit of material. Essentially, there is a veiled presentation of corporeality, the body in its pristine form.
A.D.: Interesting, why is there a societal need to violate these norms and display one's body? You mentioned covering, modern fashion, design that allows covering or hinting at parts of the body. It’s like the city in the meme about poor ecological conditions. The city is in the fog; it's there, but it's not. We know, and not just us, but the entire country receiving information from media channels, that the party was not strictly “naked.” It was more a “covered” party. Fashion ve
iled some parts. There were outfits that more toned the body than showed it in its pristine form. Even the young artist, who gave new meme life to Dobby's sock, came in just one sock, making the accessory a dubious “symbol” of the party. What surprised me in your speech? You emphasized the dependence on location. You raised a very serious topic here. The topological criterion. The dependence of a socio-cultural situation and the evaluation of an event on the specific place of its realization or occurrence. What is the fundamental difference compared to a nudist beach, wh ere, as you said, it's permissible, and in the center of Moscow, it requires ethical and legislative regulation and responsibility?
A.V.: It turns out that the stars decided to broadcast and do this, you could say, for show. On a nudist beach, for example, filming is prohibited. People understand they do it for themselves, not for the public. As long as there are spectators, the circus will always work. I classify the party as a scandalous, almost circus-like performance.
A.D.: I like the analogy. Today we briefly touched on the topic of clothing, fashion. If we talk about nudity, the topic of clothing is probably closely linked. It seems one accessory was lucky, whether in quotes or not, it became a sign-index, as semioticians say, of the entire party and its social scandal. The sock covered the sexual organ of a young musician, likely unknown to the general public. This musician allegedly faced ostracism. What struck me is that a piece of clothing, not a significant one, becomes memetic. A sock, for instance, circulates in bearded jokes and stereotypes. Dobby as a character, if you remember, often became the subject of jokes about typical female gifts for February 23rd: finally, we found a creature that truly appreciates socks. Perpetually “cursed men” are always unhappy when they receive another shower gel, shaving cream, and socks for the holiday. So it turns out the same clothing item strangely becomes a subject of laughter and scandal. Socks are not a gift but a parody of one. An attempt to just get rid of the person, a completely “worn-out” accessory. Didn't you – and this is now a humorous question – feel proud of this accessory when it became the symbol of a scandalous party?
A.V.: Actually, socks are a useful gift; I don't quite understand why they are regarded so negatively. There are now many varieties and designs of socks – themed ones with “The Simpsons,” “South Park,” and so on. You are right in your strange assertion that the sock “distinguished” itself: that scandalous “naked party” was more of a covered party. And it was covered by a sock, no matter how funny or absurd that sounds.
A.D.: The sock acted as a “boundary” (a strange assertion about a simple sock, isn't it?), separating a covered party from a fully naked one. “Naked party” sounds catchy and memorable, bringing cultural backgrounds like “Naked Gun.” If it had been called “a party in light, piquant clothing,” it would not sound so concise and striking. In a “naked party,” there is something eye-catching and sharp. And the sock, it seems to me, became that unique accessory on the boundary. It maintained the presentation of corporeality at the boundary between two formats. I think that in specially designated places, within the framework of fashion shows, wh ere very unusual images are sometimes broadcast, it can be quite imaginable and reproducible. Relativism of norms and culture? Perhaps, yes. If murder – an anti-human practice in any civilized society – was historically often ritualistic and regulated, why can't we say the same about presentations of the body? At fashion shows, we can get roughly the same as at the party, but it will be grounded in different circumstances. The thin line separating art or fashion from social perversions – wh ere is it? Recently, I read a quote from David Kishik's “Notes on a Schizoid State” that philosophy is a legalized form of schizophrenia, mixed with “ontological uncertainty” (Kishik, 2024). Apparently, art “deserves” this status too.
A.D.: Hello. We continue our discussion on the latest memes of 2024.
A.V.: Good day.
A.D.: Briefly describe the composition of our meme for today.
A.V.: The composition is quite simple. The meme mimics or broadcasts a real photo featuring three people. One girl is sitting on another's shoulders, and the girl on top is passionately kissing a guy leaning out of a window. The captions attract attention, not just the composition. The guy is labeled “IT guy's girlfriend.” The one on the shoulders of “chat GPT” is the “IT guy.” The “chat” is smiling with a happy face, apparently glad to help and support the “IT guy.” That's all there is to say about the composition.
A.D.: Yes, you described the composition succinctly and accurately. What caught your attention?
A.V.: The captions do not match the characters' genders. The “IT guy” is represented by a girl, though women can certainly be “IT specialists” too (addressing gender stereotypes in professional environments). The guy leaning out of the window is labeled “girlfriend.”
A.D.: We can address professions, corporeality, and gender. Do you associate “IT specialist” with women?
A.V.: Yes, of course, but intuition suggests it's predominantly a “male” profession. Perhaps this is due to a predisposition toward math and technology, a way of thinking more common in men. As you know, the derogatory term “nerd” is a male marker. A gamer, for instance, is also primarily associated with young men. Can you imagine a female gamer? In nature, there are “gamers,” if we use the feminine form.
A.D.: Nowadays, people say “author,” “illustrator,” and so on. “Gamer,” “IT specialist.” Does the latter term bother you? Honestly, if it doesn't, say so.
A.V.: Personally, I don't like feminized terms. I think it's unimportant to mark your gender. The main thing is that you know your gender.
A.D.: The IT specialist and his girlfriend. This is a professional role. I'm not talking about the girl but the IT specialist. And this professional role is somehow connected to the figure at the bottom of the composition, right? Chat GPT. What have you heard about chat GPT? What associations does it evoke for you? Just stay on the associative level, no technical details. Today, I think only the lazy haven’t heard about it.
A.V.: Many of my acquaintances use it to write essays and summaries. It constructs texts based on a series of questions.
A.D.: And how do your acquaintances rate these texts? Have you heard any feedback?
A.V.: I would say they are mostly satisfied. The chat can produce both essay texts and term papers.
A.D.: Then why “mostly” satisfied? Is something bothering them?
A.V.: It takes information from various sources, including unreliable ones, from all possible internet sources. So it always needs to be double-checked, especially for important work.
A.D.: Okay, do you think a person writing a term paper uses verified sources?
A.V.: If that person has a good academic advisor, they will recommend literature to work with. Or the advisor checks the term paper and points out any poor sources. My academic advisor has set the requirement that sources must be very recent, with 50% from 2023 and 2024. And she verifies the data from these sources.
A.D.: You're concerned that chat GPT uses supposedly unchecked sources, any and all, let’s say. But what if we touch on its socio-cultural or anthropological impact? That is, the consequences of systematic use of the chatbot’s capabilities. What do you see as potential risks or positive outcomes? Often people talk about risks, making the technology conversation one-sided. Let me preface your possible response with another comment. Wh ere are the usual risks seen? Traditionally, they talk about the social consequences of the technology from OpenAI. The company initiated the emergence of a new-generation chatbot, unprecedented in its capabilities. No voice assistants can compare to what GPT can do, though they can do a lot. People usually talk about the labor market – a direct social threat, a social risk immediately visible. The labor market will somehow reformat. The IT specialist in our meme sits on chat GPT. This means that if the chat “disappears,” something will happen to the IT specialist. He will fall to the ground. The small human pyramid of two “parts” will collapse, the contact will break. This is about the labor market, some professions, as futurologists warn us, will disappear. The list is indefinitely broad, not just copywriters, rewriters working with texts. They “mourn” teachers, designers, psychologists. Futuristic “tombstones,” as I call them, appear online. They even talk about the technology affecting programmers who write code. The chat can do this too, right? And our “IT specialist” is therefore on the shoulders of the “tech giant.” Do you see any anthropological or psychological consequences, not just social ones, like changes in the labor market?
A.V.: Regarding the essence of a person, their inner world may also change because, firstly, a person may become very lazy, deciding that AI can do everything for them, leading to degradation. If I don't constantly train my brain, it will eventually lose neural connections. Overall, I don't know, it’s important for a person to constantly self-affirm, and if they don't achieve anything, how will self-affirmation occur? The only thing left to claim as an achievement would be creating AI.
A.D.: This doesn't actually concern the user. As users, we have no part in its creation. It's possible, though doubtful, if I pointed to abstract humanity, including myself, and thus associated myself with creators, humanity as creators. But that, you understand, is an abstract category and a huge (a)logical leap. I didn't personally create it. Didn't lend a hand or head to this technology, right? For you, the phrase from “The Adventures of Electronics,” “robots work, humans are happy!” isn't as obvious and true as it might seem.
A.V.: I think people will willingly use GPT at first, relax, and then get bored and want to invent something new.
A.D.: You believe, if I understand correctly, that intellectual progress won't stop. GPT isn't the peak of human genius?
A.V.: Yes, I think that people need to invent new programs out of boredom.
A.D.: Dear colleagues, good day. Alexandra and I continue our small series of discussions on the latest memes of 2024. Today, we cannot overlook a classic figure experiencing at least a second wave of popularity. This is the figure of a well-known character portrayed by actor Tolokonnikov, a character from Mikhail Afanasyevich Bulgakov's novella “Heart of a Dog.” As we know, this character is named Polygraph Polygraphovich Sharikov. This character emerged in a truly fantastic manner, a creation of engineering, the product of experimental technologies. “Biotechnologies,” as they would say today and a few decades ago. This was a creation of Soviet experimental biotechnology, directly manipulating brain centers. Actor Tolokonnikov brilliantly depicted this character. There is a particular scene in the film that became memetic. As often happens in cinema, the meme is essentially a frame. Briefly describe the composition of the meme frame. What do we see?
A.V.: Good day. In this meme, we see Sharikov in a rather relaxed pose. The character is sitting on a couch, with his arms resting on the armrests. His facial expression conveys, it seems to me, self-confidence and boundless faith in his abilities and capabilities. Perhaps his appearance plays a role. After all, he has acquired a human form. He is probably proud of this – having truly ascended the evolutionary ladder, almost reaching the “stairs to heaven.” Yes, he is no longer a dog. He is a man.
A.D.: “Man! This is magnificent! It sounds... proud!” as Gorky's character bequeathed to us. Do you think Sharikov's appearance in the frame expresses self-confidence?
A.V.: Yes, because it's clear the person feels relaxed, with his chin slightly raised and a bold expression.
A.D.: Yes, there is indeed some narcissism, self-confidence; I absolutely agree. Now let's think about the expression of the narcissistic Sharikov, a narcissistic subject (not long ago?), let's be honest, a product of biotechnological solutions, who has practically moved to a new level of existence, a new form of life, from a stray dog, which “uttered” its famous refrain “brothers, vivisectors, why are you doing this to me?” and was battered by life. A stray dog suddenly becomes a character dressed in a fashionable suit. Thanks to Professor Preobrazhensky, constantly battling local bureaucracy, which sought to curtail his luxurious existence and privileges, Sharikov's character now becomes a central element of a meme composition (not to mention the excellent novella). This self-confidence can be used for various purposes. We, colleague, chose a meme with text. “I'll get a job with a salary of 50,000. In four months, I'll save 200,000.” What is memetic for you here? What reaction does this thesis evoke in you?
A.V.: This meme irritates me a bit because it conveys the population's financial illiteracy.
A.D.: You think the meme critiques financial illiteracy?
A.V.: Of course, because a meme is now one of the categories through which we can interact with different layers of the population. And perhaps intellectually diverse people try to convey significant information to the “masses” through memes, which actively scroll through meme feeds. Through such pictures, one can understand that it's a kind of stimulation or understand that it applies to you at least. And think about why this is shown to you in the feed.
A.D.: Do you think – this is a purely speculative question – that memes of this kind reach their target audience? That is, does the “average” citizen, who does not deny themselves lively gatherings and lacks financial literacy, become the real target audience of this meme?
A.V.: People with financial illiteracy can understand this meme, for example, by going to the comments and seeing user reactions. Often, when someone doesn't understand a meme, they check the comments to see what others say. As for the intellectual part of the population, intellectuals likely try to assert themselves through such memes because they understand they won't live that way, their high cultural level won't allow it.
A.D.: One last question for today. It's very interesting because we try not to lose sight of the aspect of corporeality. This also concerns “meme studies.” Why was Polygraph Polygraphovich Sharikov chosen as a meme hero? Who else could be represented here, for example? Why him, his image? “I'll live well, get a job.” Why him? What does his corporeal image convey, transmit?
A.V.: Firstly, the character was created artificially, so he doesn't fully understand real life rules and cannot reasonably assess his actions, behaviors, and thoughts. Secondly, he is self-satisfied and confidently constructs utopias, expresses unrealistic, unfounded ideas, believes in his logic, thinking he can practically realize his “u-topos.”
A.D.: Believes in his strengths, a certain significance, right? An individual. Does his corporeality suggest anything to you? When you first saw this meme yesterday, your reaction was quite specific: “What a scary actor!”
A.V.: Yes, because he looks like a primitive human. Yes, he looks like a primitive human but in a suit. There is a dissonance between barbaric corporeality and civilized clothing; the corporeality is masked but breaks through. It creates a kind of dissonance, I think. A monkey with a grenade.
A.D.: By the way, the combination in the meme expression “monkey with a grenade” captures the risky and uncertain relationship between civilization and nature. Civilization is the grenade, and the monkey is nature (though conditional). In our meme, fashionable clothing is a marker of civilization. Do you think Sharikov's image, in terms of corporeality, correlates with the common people of any country, the so-called “ordinary people”? There is the category of “ordinary people,” a hierarchical category, actually quite contradictory. It's taken for granted to call some population “ordinary people.” As if, with primitive dialectics, there are complex people or those beyond these bounds.
A.V.: “Ordinary people,” in my view, don't wear suits. They prefer or are forced by low financial means to wear inexpensive, “quasi-sporty” clothes. The “ordinary people” don't think about their appearance. They don't spend on brands and labels. Here, the suit is obviously branded, though the category is dubious in the context of Soviet anti-capitalist ideology. Professor Preobrazhensky spared no expense on this person. Unfortunately, the clear dissonance between his psychology and appearance makes Sharikov's figure archetypical. It expresses something embellished, like a wedding veil hiding a scary face. This is a dissonance between the inner world and outer appearance because inside, the person is far from beautiful, while outwardly they look neat and well-dressed. Only the face reveals a certain wildness or primitiveness.
A.D.: In this regard, it seems to me, the actor's type perfectly suited this role. But that's a question of the film's aesthetic value and the director's foresight. Thank you for the conversation.
A.D.: Good afternoon. This is our final dialogue about memes. Today, we decided to discuss a meme that, according to Memepedia, has never been global. It is considered local. You probably know that there is a conditional typology of memes, essentially a binary opposition, dividing them into global and local. It is interesting to investigate the differences between them and why some memes become local while others become global. I think we won't delve into this question today. The meme is called “Laughing Harkonnens.” It emerged from the popular film “Dune 2,” which many people are familiar with. Have you watched “Dune: Part Two”?
A.V.: Yes, I have. It is an interesting film that provides much food for thought.
A.D.: What do you think of the Harkonnen characters? I mean the images in the film because they are vividly portrayed. It’s not just a static picture.
A.V.: Initially, I would like to touch on their appearance, which simultaneously repels and attracts. It is such repulsive beauty [our emphasis – A.D., A.V.] that you watch in horror, it disgusts you, but at the same time, the characters look aesthetic.
A.D.: Do you think the repulsiveness of the images borders on art? It’s like displaying a urinal for public viewing, an intimate object, frankly, associated with a known procedure, a “secondary product,” as it was ironically called by Voinovich in his novel “Moscow 2042,” but it can be named “Fountain,” fundamentally changing its connotation. Do you believe their appearance borders on beauty? This is an attempt at serious categorization. What do you find beautiful about them?
A.V.: They are glossy. Their appearance is polished, I would say.
A.D.: Gloss is a sign of cleanliness, by the way, yes.
A.V.: Well, firstly, they are bald. Bald. And this certain shine and lack of eyebrows draw attention. They even somewhat resemble models, representatives of high fashion. Moreover, there is a trend now to paint over eyebrows, to bleach oneself.
A.D.: Models, as is well known, can also be bald. This trend, by the way, is quite old. Not even a trend, but rather a collection of specific examples. So, this meme emerged by accident. In April, after the film's premiere, a frame appeared showing three actors. They are laughing, but before that, all three portrayed stern, if not malicious, repulsive characters. So, this frame does not belong in the film. The “Harkonnens” actors have joyful, sincere, kind smiles. Do you think this frame can be memetic? Can it genuinely claim the status of a popular meme? Does it have the potential to become a socio-cultural unit, for example, used as a template for jokes?
A.V.: Well, of course, it can be used as a template. For example, when you need to show the reverse side of a certain phenomenon. For example, a person presents themselves in one way, but in a specific circle, they are entirely different. It doesn't necessarily mean a person tries to appear kind but is de facto evil. Personally, to me – an insane association – they seem like defenseless children.
A.D.: So, the characters are repulsive (repulsively beautiful) but also associated with children? They have something childlike about them, in my opinion. Yes, they do have a childlike quality. Some helplessness, perhaps.
A.V.: Moreover, children are born “bald.”
A.D.: You know, there are even horror films depicting repulsive infants. I think this is seen in horror films like “Dead Alive.” Horrors often play on this aspect of infancy, depicting infants.
A.V.: And not just infants, but also dwarfs who are almost the size of children but have “old” faces. With the Harkonnens, it looks similar.
A.D.: It seems to me, in humorous horror, an interesting sub-genre, “Dead Alive,” depicted a repulsive infant. The figure is paradoxical in what sense? In terms of mutation. Mutation produces a monster. At the same time, the monster is an infant, provoking an ethical collision. You can't kill it, but you want to. Ethos, the norm, firmly holds a person back – you can't kill an infant just because it’s a mutant. That's what ethics might tell us. However, watching it, giving it the right to exist, letting it grow, we seemingly can't do either. This is the collision. You have an intriguing image of grown-up “children” who have already taken the right to exist. What associations does this meme evoke in you? Traditionally, the object of ridicule is the characters' bald heads. They are often depicted as Easter eggs, their bald heads decorated with paint, like for Easter. Scary and beautiful, as you said. At the same time, it evokes a cozy, soulful Easter atmosphere. What associations do you have? How can the characters' bodies be played with? That's what I mean.
A.V.: I imagine them as a cartoon character, the Boss Baby, who walked around in a giant diaper. He was chubby, and children often have puffiness. Moreover, children in that cartoon tried to control the world somehow. They also tried to shape the world's fate and were essentially just playing. The characters, if you refer to the film, also try to maintain and expand power by any means, possibly to an absolute. This might be an infantile position because absolute power can't exist.
A.D.: Yet they want absolute power, against logic and everything else. It's interesting you link infantilism with the desire for absolute power. Traditionally, infantilism is about refusing important decisions, avoiding responsibility. Excessive categorization and absolutization are more about maximalism.
In conclusion, if you don't mind, let’s say a few sentences. Let's start with you, if you will. Do you see research potential in studying memes? If so, what kind of potential? Should “serious” science, let's say, engage in studying something seemingly “not serious,” like memes?
A.V.: I think it should. There are practical goals researchers set, like using memes as an interactive means of presenting information, visualizing in the learning process. Alongside this, it's essential to observe respondents' reactions. Memes are a comprehensible form for the younger generation, helping to present information accessibly. Moreover, using memes in education can maintain the connection between generations. Memes can reach the new generation. Memes are significant as a socio-cultural phenomenon. They are important because they reflect mentality in this concise format. Some memes remain local because they aren't understood abroad. Our mentality reproduces something specific and understandable only to us. I think, yes, it’s definitely worth studying.
A.D.: I really liked your judgment. It’s comprehensive and reflects, I think, important aspects of memetics, “meme studies.” Maybe it sounds grandiose – “meme studies.” On the other hand, meme science is practically cultural science, if we take the old dichotomy of natural sciences and cultural sciences (such a dichotomy existed in philosophy). Natural sciences include physics, biology, chemistry, and cultural sciences include philosophy, history, sociology, political science. “Meme studies” become a new cultural science, thus about meanings, their generation, genesis, transformations. I think memes indeed capture intergenerational connections and intragenerational semantic patterns, the meanings valuable to a generation, what it values or pays attention to – from specific events to enduring trends. That's important – memes help with this. You are absolutely right here.
I am delighted we had this series of conversations. Thank you very much. Special thanks to the editors of “Corpus Mundi” for the upcoming great work. I hope we meet again. Next time we will change the subject of our conversation. However, we might stay within “meme studies.” Thank you.
A.V.: Thank you too. See you next time.
This work was supported by the Russian Science Foundation, Competition “Conducting fundamental scientific research and exploratory scientific research by individual scientific groups” (regional competition) 22-18-20011 “Digital literacy: interdisciplinary research (regional aspect).”
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